| janfields |
August 25, NIGHT OPEN
FORUM CHAT will begin in 5 minutes. Today we're fielding questions
on Story -- so pop in with any questions related to writing,
selling, plotting, or any other element of story! So be sure to join
us in the Auditorium in five minutes.
|
| janfields |
AUGUST 25 NIGHT OPEN
FORUM CHAT about STORY begins in 2 minutes. Bring your questions
about anything related to writing, submitting, or selling stories
(book, or magazine...story can be as long as a novel or as short as
a rebus)...in two minutes.
|
| janfields |
Welcome to NIGHT OPEN
FORUM CHAT: STORY! Pull up a chair and play "Stump the Jan" with
your questions about all areas of STORY -- building them, creating
characters for them, conflict, whatever!
|
| janfields |
If you want to ask a
question and be sure it has a chance to be posted, you'll need to
use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle
of your screen. OR type /ask...then space once and type your
question. That passes the question to me and I can post it for
answer. If you type the question in the bar at the bottom of you
screen, I may not see it.
|
| janfields |
Tonight we've already
got questions lined up...I want to get to the few leftovers from
Tuesday and a lot more.
|
| janfields |
STORY covers a wide
area...but can result in very specific rejections when you have
weaknesses in it.
|
| janfields |
For example, if you get
rejections that say "episodic" then you have a weakness in story
plot.
|
| janfields |
While rejections that
say "slight" usually was weak in theme.
|
| janfields |
So STORY can cover just
about everything...and even stuff in nonfiction.
|
| janfields |
Since most editors want
writers to look for the story in every piece.
|
| janfields |
By which they mean the
anecdote, the example, the personal side, or the
fun.
|
| janfields |
So...let's hit some
questions.
|
| charweb |
what's Moo Cow Fan
Club?
|
| janfields |
Ahhh...Moo Cow Fan Club
is the nonfiction magazine...
|
| janfields |
that was smart enough
to buy and RUN stuff from dragonlady....
|
| janfields |
and in which an article
is coming out NOW.
|
| janfields |
Watch your
newsstands.
|
| janfields |
It's a very nice themed
nonfiction magazine, a bit small...slightly a one-man-band with the
creators doing most things.
|
| janfields |
But lots of style and
flair.
|
| janfields |
The editor is Becky
Ances and they like you to find the story in the nonfiction
too.
|
| omalizzie |
How do you make
non-fiction an exciting story?
|
| janfields |
There are a number of
ways to do that.
|
| janfields |
Some publishers (mostly
the trade publishers) and some magazines (even) will let you
fictionalize the nonfiction a bit...
|
| janfields |
coming up with a
"story" to marry with the events.
|
| janfields |
But most of the time,
you find the story in the facts.
|
| janfields |
You may not have the
opportunity to use the dialogue and specific detail you would use in
fiction
|
| janfields |
But you'll look for the
same elements...action, conflict, a sense of
tension.
|
| janfields |
I saw a great
nonfiction "story" in Cricket recently about a confederate prison
escape.
|
| janfields |
Now obviously you can't
have dialogue...that was recorded by history.
|
| janfields |
But you can use the
available research to recreate some of the specific detail of the
area.
|
| janfields |
For example, if the
escape took place in the South in August...you could assume
sweltering heat and be pretty assured of being
right.
|
| janfields |
So you might bring that
element in...to make the piece exciting.
|
| janfields |
Highlights likes you to
bring in the STORY through the human element.
|
| janfields |
For example, Highlights
might look for a geology piece
|
| janfields |
that focuses on
geologists...their work, their thinking, their discoveries, their
lives
|
| janfields |
rather than focusing on
facts about rocks.
|
| ricksgal |
but can you use some of
the nonfiction research to make a fiction piece with
dialoge?
|
| janfields |
Lots of historical
fiction is a marriage between extensive research and
imagination.
|
| janfields |
You research...you
learn about the times, the events, the technology, the
language.
|
| janfields |
Maybe even specific
historic figures...then you marry that to
|
| janfields |
a story that brings out
the theme that interests you.
|
| janfields |
So, yes...many times
fiction grows out of research that might also produce a nonfiction
article.
|
| charweb |
What if I don't have any
printed resources like books......
|
| charweb |
to include in the
bibliography? Is it a must, besides .....
|
| charweb |
internet resources, to
have some resources in print to..
|
| janfields |
It depends, charweb,
upon the story.
|
| janfields |
And the
magazine.
|
| janfields |
Some magazines are
completely comfortable with Internet sources.
|
| janfields |
Some are not --
Highlights and the Cricket group are not.
|
| janfields |
But if you are using
internet sources to supplement your personal
experience...
|
| janfields |
for example, if you
went on a swim with dolphins and they were not as gentle as you
expected.
|
| janfields |
You might marry that
personal experience with some research into
dolphins
|
| janfields |
that basically came
from the internet.
|
| janfields |
Because most of the
story came from you...your experience.
|
| janfields |
In a case like that,
even Cricket and Highlights PROBABLY would let it
go.
|
| ricksgal |
what should go in a
coverletter?
|
| janfields |
Okay, my first
paragraph of a cover letter focuses on two things.
|
| janfields |
Number one (most
important) why does the READER want to read this.
|
| janfields |
Not the
editor
|
| janfields |
Not the reader's
parents
|
| janfields |
Not his
teachers.
|
| janfields |
The reader....how can I
make the story/article sound like fun?
|
| janfields |
How can I make it sound
exciting?
|
| janfields |
How can I highlights
the absolute more exciting part that is going to blow the kid
away?
|
| janfields |
If you don't do that in
the cover letter...nothing else you do in the cover letter matter
much.
|
| janfields |
You still could make
the sale as long as your manuscript really was fun and
exciting.
|
| janfields |
But the cover letter
wouldn't be doing any of the work for you.
|
| janfields |
Now, the second most
important thing is what does the story/article offer that's
valuable?
|
| janfields |
This is less
important...but it's still important.
|
| janfields |
In a story, I handle
this by hitting the "fun" elements of the
story...then
|
| janfields |
saying something
like...
|
| janfields |
During the adventure,
Troy learns that as long as he can count on himself, he has what he
needs"
|
| janfields |
Of something like
that.
|
| janfields |
Something that shows
the "theme" or "take away" value in a way that doesn't sound
like..
|
| janfields |
"And the reader will
learn how important it is to help around the
house."
|
| janfields |
Editors don't like
that.
|
| janfields |
After you hit that
stuff...you just need to do the typical dance about how long it is,
how you've includes an SASE, how you think the editor is the best
thing since chocolate
|
| janfields |
stuff like
that.
|
| jeanette
h |
Must the plot for a pb be
more complex than a mag story?
|
| janfields |
No, actually a mag
story is usually more complex than a picture book.
|
| janfields |
The difference is more
one of ... magnitude. A picture book needs to directly touch more
reader.
|
| janfields |
A magazine story might
only be a hit with half the readers and the editor would be cool
with that.
|
| janfields |
But a pb editor is
looking to score with every reader.
|
| janfields |
so there's a certain
universal quality that they look for.
|
| janfields |
But it's not really a
matter of complexity...some picture books are quite
simple.
|
| janfields |
I think it's more a
matter of how much they linger...so it might be like...depth instead
of complexity.
|
| janfields |
And certainly picture
books writers usually labor over the text word for word a bit
more.
|
| eggamy |
Can I resubmit an MS to
the same mag, as I did if it's been years since the first
submission?
|
| janfields |
Tentatively
yes.
|
| janfields |
If you know why the
piece was rejected in the first place and you've fixed the
problem.
|
| janfields |
For example, if I wrote
a pirate story for Highlights, sending it every few years just gives
them a fresh chance to reject it.
|
| janfields |
They would never ever
buy pirates.
|
| janfields |
So...if you strongly
feel that the reason was simply timing or was something you have
since fixed...sure, I would send it again.
|
| janfields |
I have nothing but
nerve ;-)
|
| lily
li |
Which magazines can I see
your recent stories?
|
| janfields |
My recent
stuff?
|
| janfields |
Ha...ICL
publications!!
|
| janfields |
I have some stories in
archives at Wee Ones...hmmm...two things I think.
|
| janfields |
And I have some stuff
sold...and waiting publication (since we're talking Cricket group
and Highlights...waiting waiting waiting...we should all live so
long.)
|
| janfields |
Nothing recent though
that you could actually find...'cept Wee Ones.
|
| webby27 |
How long is a typical
nonfiction article in a publication like
Highlights?
|
| janfields |
Highlights? Depends on
age group. I've seen nf there from right around 100 words up to
nearly 1000 for the older kids.
|
| janfields |
But I think they're
getting stricter on length so more like 800 now.
|
| janfields |
With Boys' Quest..it's
500 I believe
|
| janfields |
With Cricket...you can
go over 1000
|
| janfields |
Really the counts are
all over the place...that's why a good market guide really
helps.
|
| ricksgal |
what if you have definate
ideas about illustrations? forgive my spelling
|
| janfields |
You can make
illustration notes for any picture book piece.
|
| janfields |
And you send photo
references for complex illustrations for nonfiction (though not
usually with the submission)
|
| janfields |
But if it's just a
matter of preference and not really NEED
|
| janfields |
Then editors really
don't want to see suggestions...at all...ever.
|
| janfields |
I sold a game to a
magazine once...that would be played as a board
game.
|
| janfields |
And I drew the board as
a guide, as well as sending a manuscript with the text for each
square in print.
|
| janfields |
And the magazine
matched my sketch exactly (only drawn by someone with actual
talent.)
|
| janfields |
So it depends on
need...they want input if it's needed but prefer not to get
suggestions based on preference.
|
| rainchain |
I have a rebus and a
activity that are on same theme is it
|
| rainchain |
a bad idea to submit
together?
|
| janfields |
I would send them
together. I'm big on sending packages of stuff on the same
theme.
|
| janfields |
So far...it's never
ever run in the same issue...even when an editor accepts the whole
package.
|
| janfields |
And I've had editors by
part but not all too
|
| janfields |
So, if they are
thematically linked...sure, I would send it.
|
| dragonlady |
what is the difference
between a Board Book and a PB in terms of length
etc?
|
| janfields |
Board book manuscripts
are usually way way way way shorter...like 200 words or
less.
|
| janfields |
You don't see that many
200 word or less picture books.
|
| janfields |
About the only time I
see a board book even close to 200 words, it's being adapted from a
picture book.
|
| janfields |
Board books are a tough
sale...they are expensive to make
|
| janfields |
So you don't see as
many publishers open to them.
|
| mistys |
Can you submit the same
ms to multiple editors at the same time?
|
| janfields |
Not with the same
imprint.
|
| janfields |
But if everyone is
comfortable with it...if the publishers say in their guidelines that
they take simultaneous submissions.
|
| janfields |
Of even if they just
don't say they don't
|
| janfields |
You can. I don't
because I don't want the hassle but lots of folks
do.
|
| janfields |
You need to tell the
editor that it's a simutaneous submission.
|
| janfields |
You need to be certain
you are targeting editor carefully (not just sending to every
publisher in the market guide)
|
| janfields |
Sim subs should NOT be
used to shot gun manuscripts to ever publisher with an address
listed.
|
| janfields |
That is one of the
great evils of the pub world right now...too much shot gunning clog
up the submission tubes.
|
| janfields |
And if someone buys the
piece, you need to let everyone who is looking at it
know.
|
| janfields |
You can drop them an
email or a card to withdraw the manuscript.
|
| janfields |
So obviously you need
to keep careful records.
|
| charweb |
What exactly "imprint
"mean?
|
| janfields |
An imprint is like a
sub-publisher of a main house.
|
| janfields |
Now, I have a lousy
memory for who own who.
|
| janfields |
But say, Penguin Putnum
has a bunch of smaller imprints...all are part of Penguin Putnam
(and it'll say that in the market guide)
|
| janfields |
but they all tend to be
inter-related so you don't send something to each
imprint.
|
| janfields |
You pick the imprint
that seems to match your manuscript best...and send
there.
|
| stretch |
What is a
vignette?
|
| janfields |
A vignette is a scene
or maybe a couple short scenes that protray some interesting
events
|
| janfields |
or an interesting
relationship
|
| janfields |
but don't have a story
-- no plot, no struggle, maybe no main character
|
| janfields |
Think of it like a
snapshot of something that could grow into a story...but really is
just a moment
|
| dragonlady |
what market guides do you
like/personally use?
|
| janfields |
I get the ICL guides
every year -- all of them -- and I get Children's Writers and
Illustrators Market.
|
| janfields |
I like all of those,
but even they are not enough...I am a market
junkie.
|
| janfields |
So I also get the
Children's Writer newsletter (not mine...the one with a couple pages
of markets in each issue)
|
| janfields |
And I get the
Children's Book Insider...for more market stuff.
|
| janfields |
And if I found more, I
would probably buy them.
|
| rainchain |
Is 180 words too long for
an activity?
|
| janfields |
It depends on the
activity and the publisher, but I have definitely sold activities at
that length before.
|
| charweb |
Suppose, I'm writing
about a festival/sport or anything....
|
| charweb |
from my country which is
going to be based on my....
|
| charweb |
personal experience and
culture - for that what kind of.....
|
| janfields |
Really, charweb, your
personal experience is about all they need.
|
| janfields |
They will trust that
you're the "expert" there.
|
| janfields |
And, by the way,
HIGHLIGHTS loves those kind of pieces.
|
| mistys |
If submitting for a
picture book, do you enter each page of book on separate pages or
number them on one page?
|
| janfields |
You don't break it out
by how you visualize it printed in the book.
|
| janfields |
Just type it like a
regular manuscript (like you would a magazine
story)
|
| janfields |
and let the editor
decide on how it should be paginated.
|
| janfields |
That's something the
editor and illustrator will do.
|
| janfields |
Of course, once you get
really famous...then you can tell the editor where to put the page
breaks.
|
| janfields |
I know Rick Walton
makes notes where he sees the manscript being paginated for a
book
|
| janfields |
But even then...he
doesn't put the text on different manuscript pages.
|
| janfields |
So a picture book
manuscript...it only runs a couple pages.
|
| mistys |
So each page would be
entered as a new paragraph?
|
| janfields |
Not unless it makes a
logical normal paragraph.
|
| janfields |
You don't break
paragraphs to show pagination..you don't do anything to show
pagination.
|
| janfields |
You just write it like
it's a story.
|
| janfields |
Unless it's in
verse...then you write it like a poem.
|
| dragonlady |
how many pages is your
average PB?
|
| janfields |
32...though some of
that is front and back matter
|
| janfields |
I think most folks
assume about 26 story pages...plus or minus.
|
| janfields |
But books (paper books)
are created from huge sheets of paper
|
| janfields |
The paper makes
like...8 pages at a time...something like that.
|
| janfields |
So all books will be
multiples of 8.
|
| janfields |
The big sheet of paper
is called a signature...and multiple pages are printed on
it.
|
| janfields |
For picture books...the
average is 32 pages because it's made of a certain number of
signatures.
|
| janfields |
But not every page is a
story page...
|
| janfields |
That's why...by the
way, you'll find blank pages in the backs of some
books
|
| janfields |
Especially cheaply
bound paperbacks.
|
| janfields |
It's pages left over
from the signature.
|
| stretch |
and picture books are
around 150 words?
|
| janfields |
Picture books range
from no words to around 1300
|
| janfields |
But most publishers are
looking for books with around 300 -- 800 words
|
| janfields |
But they are open to
more or less if they spot the right book.
|
| janfields |
If you run more than
1000...it's gets tougher and you could need to look to smaller
publishers.
|
| janfields |
Not dinky low
production value places...just slightly smaller.
|
| janfields |
Like Charlesbridge or
Peachtree...or...dang...del always tells me on.
|
| janfields |
Dell and one...I tell
y'all if I could type I'd be dangerous.
|
| dragonlady |
why do you not recommend
stories in verse (other than the obvious poor rhyme, meter
etc)?
|
| janfields |
I love stories in
verse.
|
| janfields |
I can't write them...at
all...period...even a little, but I think they are
fantastic.
|
| janfields |
But they are blindingly
difficult and the number of people who do them as well as they think
they do...well, it's small.
|
| janfields |
I've read ...literally
hundreds of rhyming picture book manuscripts.
|
| janfields |
And not one of them had
the right balance of meter/rhyme and story.
|
| janfields |
Some had great stories
and needed to be rewritten in prose to get rid of the irregular
rhythm and meter.
|
| janfields |
Some were good rhymers
but they had given up story to make the rest fit.
|
| janfields |
Now...I don't happen to
teach a single solitary book course.
|
| janfields |
And I've read hundreds
of rhyming picture books without finding a good
one.
|
| janfields |
Editors read thousands
and thousands.
|
| janfields |
And rarely find a good
one.
|
| janfields |
So they tend to be two
things.
|
| janfields |
Prejudiced against
rhyming picture books...in other words, if it rhymes they assume
it's going to be bad.
|
| janfields |
And incredibly happy
when they find a good one.
|
| janfields |
Because if you really
do it terrific...they will LOVE you
|
| janfields |
So...I think people who
do them well should do them...kids love them and so do
editors.
|
| coloradokate |
First person/present
tense is popular for YA fiction; will editors accept it for MG now,
or is third person/past still more attractive to
them?
|
| janfields |
Oh yeah, it's showing
up in a lot of middle grade.
|
| janfields |
It's really most
popular with girl fiction.
|
| janfields |
I am not sure why. But
yes, it's building in middle grade.
|
| ricksgal |
when submitting a pb ms
should you note a target age/will editor figure it
out
|
| janfields |
I personally
rarely...almost never mention target ages for
anything.
|
| janfields |
I might say "younger
readers" or "older readers" or maybe teens but then it's usually
part of another sentence..not a "this manuscript is for blah blah
age group."
|
| janfields |
I think editors figure
it out really well.
|
| janfields |
And if I miss by just a
smidge...hey, they I don't look dumb.
|
| janfields |
But if you're targeting
a really unusual age group...like pregnant women...then you might
want to mention it.
|
| stretch |
It's great that we don't
have to worry about illustrating, just the writing!
|
| janfields |
Oh yeah, specially the
way I draw.
|
| mistys |
Should the text stand
alone in the ms or be supported by the pictures?
|
| janfields |
A picture book
manuscript needs to make sense...but it also needs to feel a
bit...like there's more to be mined there.
|
| janfields |
I think they are a bit
like poetry.
|
| janfields |
Poetry has an open
quality that you find in a lot of picture books.
|
| janfields |
They can be enjoyed
just read...but you know there's more there to be pondered and dug
out.
|
| janfields |
For a picture book, the
audience is too young to ponder much.
|
| janfields |
So the illustrator does
the "digging out" for them by creating a kind of subtext in the
illustration.
|
| janfields |
So, picture books don't
stand alone the way a magazine story will.
|
| janfields |
And sometimes you need
illustrator notes even for them to make sense.
|
| janfields |
But they still open up
to a story...so you'll need that much "stand alone" quality...the
quality of having a story there and it not feeling shallow or
slight.
|
| janfields |
Okay, friends...it's
10pm in New England and my eyes are weary.
|
| janfields |
Thank you so much for
popping in to be with me.
|
| janfields |
I really like you guys
tons.
|