| janfields |
Join us tonight in the
AUDITORIUM-Scheduled Events Room for open forum on the topic: Point
of View. Come and join in five minutes from now.
|
| janfields |
Tonight's open forum
will begin shortly. While you wait for chat to begin, feel free to
use your ASK A QUESTION button RIGHT BETWEEN THE YELLOW “MAP” AND
THE RED QUESTION MARK IN ICHAT to post some questions or comments on
Point of view -- first person, second person, third person dramatic,
ominiscient or restricted. Chat will begin two minutes from
now.
|
| janfields |
Hi, and welcome to open
forum on Point of View. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and
tonight we are talking about point of view -- your options and the
pluses and minuses for each. If you want to ask a question and be
sure I get a chance to see it you'll need to use either the "ask a
question" button on the bar across the middle of your screen. OR
type /ask...then space once and type your question. That passes the
question to me and I can post it.
|
| janfields |
Let me go over the
basic forms of point of view...
|
| janfields |
Point of view is
defined in person.
|
| janfields |
First person -- the "I"
point of view.
|
| janfields |
First person can be
written as the first person narrating.
|
| janfields |
Or first person can be
written as stream-of-consciousness where you are
inside...
|
| janfields |
the character's head
every moment.
|
| janfields |
Stream of consciousness
first person is very rare and unlikely to be seen in anything but
short YA.
|
| janfields |
YA = Young
Adult.
|
| janfields |
Most first person is
strictly the "I" telling the story.
|
| janfields |
Second person is
writing as if the reader were the main character.
|
| janfields |
Which-way books are
written this way...
|
| janfields |
The books where the
reader actually makes choices...
|
| janfields |
as to how the storyline
will proceed.
|
| janfields |
Second person is also
done in some experimental literary novels...but you really don't see
it in kid lit.
|
| janfields |
Third person is written
from the "he/she" viewpoint.
|
| janfields |
Third person comes in
three flavors....
|
| janfields |
Third person
dramatic...where the narration doesn't get into ANYONE's
head.
|
| janfields |
Third person omniscient
where the narration gets in everyone's head.
|
| janfields |
And Third person
limited...where the narraiton only gets in one person's head...at a
time anyway...with switches usually happening at changes of scene or
chapter.
|
| jolie |
I've had trouble changing
my voice from 1st to third person, so this will be good for
me.
|
| janfields |
First person is seen
more in Young Adult than any other group.
|
| janfields |
Though I'm seeing more
and more middle grade with it, Middle grade still does more third
than first.
|
| janfields |
And picture books with
first person are fairly rare.
|
| janfields |
One of the benefits of
first person is voice...
|
| janfields |
you really pour in the
attitude with first person.
|
| janfields |
And you don't have to
worry quite as much about the depth of other characterization since
your main character REALLY dominates.
|
| janfields |
But you do have to be
careful because first person tends to want to TELL not SHOW...so it
can be slow if you don't take extreme care.
|
| max101 |
What are some examples of
a second person story?
|
| janfields |
You see second person
in nonfiction a lot.
|
| janfields |
Not so much in fiction
except in the "choose your own adventures"
|
| janfields |
the only novel length
second person I know is "Bright Lights, Big City" and it's an adult
novel.
|
| janfields |
But second person in
nonfiction reads like this...
|
| janfields |
First you feel a tickle
in your throat that's hard to cough away...
|
| janfields |
then you notice your
eyes feel hot...
|
| janfields |
Usually, by the end of
the day, you're joints begin to ache.
|
| janfields |
You've got the
flu.
|
| janfields |
That's the kind of
hypothetical...you...you...you of some nonfiction.
|
| janfields |
It can make the reader
feel more involved.
|
| janfields |
But it's hard to carry
for any length of time without beginning to feel
awkward.
|
| max101 |
Should you change your
pov in a story or keep it the same?
|
| janfields |
It's important to be
consistent in your point of view....
|
| janfields |
the only times I have
seen point of view changes work well...
|
| janfields |
is when a story needs
to be told by two very different characters.
|
| janfields |
For example, in WHEN MY
NAME WAS KEOKO (which I think I just spelled wrong)
|
| janfields |
By Linda Sue
Park
|
| janfields |
The story is told in
first person by one character
|
| janfields |
Then when you change
chapter
|
| janfields |
The story is told in
third person restricted with a different viewpoint
character.
|
| janfields |
This makes the
character voices very different
|
| janfields |
The story is also told
with one character speaking in present tense
|
| janfields |
And one speaking in
past tense.
|
| janfields |
She chose that so that
the reader would not be certain that the character speakigng in
present tense would survive the book.
|
| janfields |
If you make changes in
point of view...do it purposefully and be
consistent.
|
| janfields |
Many times with newer
writers, viewpoint change is more a matter of lack of attention than
purposeful choice.
|
| jolie |
Do editors prefer one
point of view over others?
|
| janfields |
Many young adult
publishers prefer first person.
|
| janfields |
ESPECIALLY in genre
like chick lit or humor.
|
| janfields |
However, young adult
novels in fantasy are often told in third person and
edi
|
| janfields |
so editors don't demand
a specific viewpoint.
|
| janfields |
It's hard to sell first
person for younger reader...picture book age
|
| janfields |
not impossible...but
hard.
|
| janfields |
That's because very
young children tend to have trouble with the cognitive leap of first
person.
|
| janfields |
You have to be able to
"think outside yourself' a little bit.
|
| janfields |
Magazine editors
therefore can also be touchy about first person for young
children.
|
| janfields |
About the only place I
see it is with very highly illustrated magazines like Ladybug...but
even then it's rare.
|
| janfields |
Third person is the
preference for very young readers.
|
| janfields |
But again, a skilled
writer who does something very well and very purposefully can "bend"
the editor's preference.
|
| coloradokate |
I don't understand third
person dramatic--is that like a storytelling POV? "Once upon a time
there were three little pigs..."?
|
| janfields |
You don't see third
person dramatic so much anymore.
|
| janfields |
I saw a story recently
in Spider that was told in third person dramatic.
|
| janfields |
The viewpoint was
chosen because none of the characters involved was really the "main"
character.
|
| janfields |
And the point of the
story was plot...not characterization.
|
| janfields |
It was humor...which is
another factor, since the story didn't really have any character
growth.
|
| janfields |
In some ways, it was a
kind of trickster tale, so to work, the reader needed to be a bit
tricked also.
|
| janfields |
If the writer had let
us "hear the thoughts" of the trickster...the reader would not have
gotten caught up in it.
|
| janfields |
And the ending would
not have been a surprise.
|
| janfields |
So a decision to stay
out of everyone's head and just watch the story
unfold...
|
| janfields |
as the
narrator...should be done very purposefully.
|
| ellynn524 |
2nd p. in NF art to talk
directly to reader?
|
| janfields |
Right...it's often done
for the intro to an informational article...
|
| janfields |
a way of involving the
reader.
|
| janfields |
But it's not usually
done in an article from beginning to end because it starts to feel
contrived eventually.
|
| janfields |
Or it starts to feel
like lecturing.
|
| janfields |
So...usually it's a
kind of hypothetical case ...assuming the reader has had an
experience.
|
| janfields |
Or it can be a way of
doing a "riddle" opening.
|
| janfields |
For
example....
|
| janfields |
Suppose you had a
duck's bill -- would you have to be a duck?
|
| janfields |
What if you laid eggs
-- then would you have to be a duck?
|
| janfields |
If you had webbed feet
-- would that clinch it?
|
| janfields |
Now, what if your mom
fed you milk when you were a baby -- could you still be
duck?
|
| janfields |
That kind of riddle
opening uses second person in a "suppose you were" hypothetical
thing.
|
| janfields |
To get the reader
thinking.
|
| janfields |
But once you spring the
punchline...you would switch to more of a straight nonfiction
style.
|
| ellynn524 |
2nd p. in NF art to talk
directly to reader?
|
| janfields |
That's the question I
just answered.
|
| janfields |
Wow...see how I'm like
Myra the mindreader...
|
| janfields |
or doofy Jan who forgot
to post the question first.
|
| babyfish |
Would you give examples
of the three 3rd person"flavors?
|
| janfields |
Sure...let's imagine a
story about a little bear who plans to drop in on his brother's in
the tub.
|
| janfields |
I'm sure that doesn't
sound familiar to anyone.
|
| janfields |
Now...got that
imagined?
|
| janfields |
Here's third person
dramatic.
|
| janfields |
Bradley peeked over the
ledge of the window.
|
| janfields |
Joey and Mo splashed
bubbles at him.
|
| janfields |
'Come on in,' they
yelled.
|
| janfields |
Bradley climbed up on
the ledge and dove into the tub.
|
| janfields |
The bubbly water
splashed everywhere.
|
| janfields |
---------
|
| janfields |
Now, notice how I
didn't tell you what any of the bears were
thinking.
|
| janfields |
Or
feeling.
|
| janfields |
Nor did I imply
feelings.
|
| janfields |
I simply described it
as a spectator might see it.
|
| janfields |
Or as you might see it
if it were being performed on a stage --hence the name
dramatic.
|
| janfields |
Like a stage
drama.
|
| janfields |
Here's third person
restricted.
|
| janfields |
Bradley peeked over the
ledge of the window.
|
| janfields |
He spotted Joey and Mo
just in time to duck the wave of bubbles they
splashed.
|
| janfields |
That looked like
fun!
|
| janfields |
Bradley climbed up onto
the ledge and looked way down into the tub.
|
| janfields |
It was deep but he
closed his eyes and jumped in.
|
| janfields |
-----------
|
| janfields |
Now, you can see that
we only sensed the inner life of one character --
Bradley.
|
| janfields |
This is probably the
most common viewpoint for middle grade magazine
fiction.
|
| janfields |
It allows the reader to
connect closely with one character.
|
| janfields |
Let's look at third
person omniscient:
|
| janfields |
Bradley peeked over the
ledge of the window and was surprised to see his
brothers.
|
| janfields |
Joey looked up at him
and nudged Mo.
|
| janfields |
Mo thought Bradley
looked like a perfect target.
|
| janfields |
He splashed a wave of
bubbles at Bradley.
|
| janfields |
Joey giggled at how
silly Bradley looked with bubbles dripping from his
nose.
|
| janfields |
-----------
|
| janfields |
In this viewpoint, you
can hear every character's thoughts if you choose.
|
| janfields |
This weakens the
connection to the main character.
|
| janfields |
And usually is only
used when the plot rules the story.
|
| janfields |
Because you actually
lose much of the reader's ability to connect with
characters.
|
| jolie |
so, when you change pov,
it's OK to change verb tenses?
|
| janfields |
If you were doing the
point of view switch at the change of chapters.
|
| janfields |
And if you are very
very very very very very skilled...you could.
|
| janfields |
But it is extremely
hard to handle that for a full novel.
|
| janfields |
And personally, I don't
have that level of skill.
|
| janfields |
Because whatever choice
you make...you're stuck with it til the end of the
novel.
|
| janfields |
And you will have to
check every single verb during your revision steps to make sure you
have'n't slipped.
|
| janfields |
Because it would be so
easy to do so.
|
| ellynn524 |
what is 3rd person
dramatic? vs just 3rd person?
|
| janfields |
Third person dramatic
is the "watchers" viewpoint. If you were watching the story
unfold...how would you present it.
|
| janfields |
You couldn't know what
the characters are thinking -- you don't read
minds.
|
| janfields |
Third person dramatic
is TOTALLY objective.
|
| janfields |
Because that's the only
way it can work...you are completely trusting that if you give the
right objective details...
|
| janfields |
the reader will read
the right emotions and motivations into the story.
|
| janfields |
So...it would be a form
of "just third person" but it's a very specific
form.
|
| emacartist37 |
do different pov work
better for different age levels (i.e. first person for young
adult)?
|
| janfields |
I've seen third person
dramatic a lot in very young picture books.
|
| janfields |
They are often just
reporting the actions and activities of the
characters.
|
| janfields |
And I've seen it in
middle grade...for very different reasons...when you have to keep
somethign hidden from the reader to surprise them with
later.
|
| janfields |
Third person restricted
is the most popular middle grade voice right now.
|
| janfields |
When I was kid...the
most popular was third person omniscient.
|
| janfields |
So if you read books
written from 1950 - 1968...you'll see almost all third person
omniscient for kids.
|
| janfields |
But it's radically
fallen out of favor because it really doesn't allow the emotional
depth to stories that most publishers want today.
|
| janfields |
You'll still see it in
some genre stuff -- horror, some fantasy (depending)...lots of plot
driven stuff.
|
| jolie |
are there tricks to
introduce the name of the character in 1st person
narrative?
|
| janfields |
It depends on the voice
of the character. You can simply have the character tell
us.
|
| janfields |
If you open in a scene
with conflict (which I like to do)...it really doesn't take long
before someone will say the character's name quite
naturally.
|
| janfields |
When we're in conflict
we'll address each other by name much more easily than when we are
not.
|
| janfields |
Usually, one of those
two work.
|
| janfields |
Introducing the name
quickly is actually less important than introducing the sex
quickly.
|
| janfields |
I have read too many
stories where I have a mental picture of the first person as a boy
only to discover "his" name is Julie...or something like that...way
far along in the story.
|
| janfields |
You really don't want
to jar the reader like that...unless you're trying to "trick" the
reader for effect.
|
| katiebug57 |
Am I using the right
format to ask a question?
|
| janfields |
Yup...that worked
perfectly.
|
| jolie |
Do you use quotation
marks in thought?
|
| janfields |
I don't ...no. I have
never found I need to.
|
| janfields |
And some editors hate
it.
|
| janfields |
While others just don't
care.
|
| janfields |
I do...though...have no
problem with having my character mutter...or mumble
|
| janfields |
Since I did a lot of
muttering when I was a kid.
|
| janfields |
Kids talk to themselves
quite a bit.
|
| janfields |
So...I might introduce
thought like this....
|
| janfields |
"Oh, that's terrific,"
I grumbled. Why does Mom always stick me with the disgusting jobs. I
hate poop.
|
| janfields |
Uh...though I would use
a question mark in the right spot...duh, on me.
|
| janfields |
But you can see. I
introduce the transition to thought with a grumble...then just move
into mental conversation without quotes.
|
| janfields |
I might also do
something like this...
|
| janfields |
I yelped. What was
Steve doing at my house? I was going to
die...totally.
|
| janfields |
Again...a sound que to
"set the mood" then just slip into the thoughts with no big
fanfare
|
| max101 |
Is there a preferred pov
magazines like to publish?
|
| janfields |
Some like one thing
more than another...yes.
|
| janfields |
Highlights, for
example, does very little first person.
|
| janfields |
Teen magazine do almost
ALL first person.
|
| janfields |
American Girl is less
picky...I've seen both.
|
| janfields |
Hopscotch does more
third than first...but they do both.
|
| janfields |
So...that's a place
where reading sample magazines can help.
|
| dreamer77 |
So, third person can be
broken down into, one, none or all?
|
| janfields |
Yeah,
basically.
|
| janfields |
Also...in third person
restricted...you can still switch viewpoints.
|
| janfields |
It's just that you can
only be in one viewpoint at a time.
|
| janfields |
Almost always only in
one viewpoint per scene.
|
| iamnina |
Jan, can you think of any
children's novels that are done in 3rd person omnicienct or 3rd
person dramatic?
|
| janfields |
Recent ones would be
tough.
|
| janfields |
All the Nancy Drews are
third person omniscient.
|
| janfields |
Though the author
doesn't get into everyone's head...the author does get into more
than one head per scene.
|
| janfields |
Hmmm...The Series of
Unfortunate Events is probably Third Person Dramatic but you've got
the involved narrator so that makes them kind of
weird.
|
| janfields |
So...I'm just not
sure.
|
| katiebug57 |
what about physical
descriptions of characters?
|
| janfields |
Here's my view on
physical description.
|
| janfields |
Give the reader only
what he needs.
|
| janfields |
Give it in
action.
|
| janfields |
So, for example, in one
of my YA works in progress...
|
| janfields |
I have my main
character say this...
|
| janfields |
I stomped up the hill,
trying not to pant like a fat girl in the sun -- which is exactly
what I am.
|
| janfields |
That's physical
description in first person.
|
| janfields |
The reader needed to
know certain things about my main character...and I gave it in a way
that went beyond the description
|
| janfields |
In all my physical
description I try to do that...I ask myself...what does the reader
NEED to know...
|
| janfields |
and how can I slip it
into the action in a way that is subtle but
purposeful.
|
| janfields |
So, I might say, "Janie
pushed flung her hair over her shoulder, wishing she had a
rubberband to pull it back.
|
| janfields |
That's physical
description...we find out she has long hair...
|
| janfields |
but it also sets us up
to see her as a kid who doesn't like vanity to get int he way of
getting the job done.
|
| ellynn524 |
what about italics for
inner thoughts?
|
| janfields |
If you dip into a
character's mind only very very rarely...italics can work
fine.
|
| janfields |
But they are
distracting on a page...so you want to take care not to overuse
them.
|
| janfields |
I used to use them
some...I have some third person stories with italics for
thought...but I basically don't do it anymore.
|
| janfields |
Okay....we're over the
ten o'clock mark...though I started late...
|
| janfields |
I so appreciate
everyone's patience.
|
| janfields |
And thank you so much
for coming and asking questions.
|
| janfields |
I always worry I'm
going to be talking to myself :-)
|
| janfields |
Not that I don't find
myself
fascinating.
|