| janfields |
Join us tonight in the
AUDITORIUM-Scheduled Events Room for an open forum with Web Editor,
Jan Fields. Tonight's topic is AGE TARGETTING, so feel free to ask
anything related to writing for specific ages, selling for specific
ages, or anything related to age (except mine.) Open Forum begins in
five minutes.
|
| janfields |
Tonight's open forum
will begin shortly. While you wait for chat to begin, feel free to
use your ASK A QUESTION button RIGHT BETWEEN THE YELLOW “MAP” AND
THE RED QUESTION MARK IN ICHAT to post some questions on any area of
age targetting that's giving you trouble. Chat will begin two
minutes from now.
|
| janfields |
Hi, and welcome to open
forum. I'm your host/moderator, Jan Fields -- and I'll be answering
questions from more than 20 years experience as a freelance writer.
If you want to ask a question and be sure I see it...you'll need to
use either the "ask a question" button on the bar across the middle
of your screen. OR type a backslash / followed immediately by the
word ask...then space once and type your question. That passes the
question to me and I can post it for everyone here and in the
transcript. So...let's get going.
|
| janfields |
Hi writer folk, we're
going to talk a little about how to
|
| janfields |
match our words to our
reader
|
| janfields |
by
age.
|
| janfields |
The youngest
children
|
| janfields |
The ones picture books
target
|
| janfields |
Are read to...so your
writing doesn't have to
|
| janfields |
be something they can
read...because they can't.
|
| janfields |
So you can use any word
a child is likely to understand.
|
| janfields |
And sometimes a few
they can't.
|
| janfields |
You target this age by
connecting with the things in their lives...
|
| janfields |
so if you want to write
about something exotic...you start by looking at the ways it is the
same
|
| janfields |
A story set in Guam
would begin by being about young children, families
|
| janfields |
love
|
| janfields |
and show how living far
away doesn't mean you are completely different.
|
| lilyphenix |
Are there some words to
avoid when you write a PB?
|
| janfields |
Well, you don't want to
address the child as if he were a college
professor.
|
| janfields |
But really...if you
would say it to a preschooler
|
| janfields |
You can probably put it
in a picture book.
|
| janfields |
Now, some picture books
I've seen...
|
| janfields |
especially those by
celebrities...
|
| janfields |
can have so many words
the child is unfamiliar with...
|
| janfields |
like jargon,
especially...
|
| janfields |
that the parent has to
spend a LOT of time stopping to explain words.
|
| janfields |
That really keeps the
book from connecting with the child.
|
| janfields |
So if you don't have a
small child in your life so that you're pretty confident in your
word choice...
|
| janfields |
you may want to stick
to mostly good basic words.
|
| janfields |
You do want to avoid a
lot of idiomatic speech that small children might not
understand.
|
| janfields |
Celebs do that
too.
|
| janfields |
Like having a character
tell another one...
|
| janfields |
"You've said that over
and over -- stop beating that dead horse."
|
| janfields |
A small child is
TOTALLY not going to get that.
|
| janfields |
He's going to picture a
horse.
|
| janfields |
dead.
|
| janfields |
getting
whupped.
|
| janfields |
And that's going to
derail the story pretty badly.
|
| marys |
Okay with the age of
sesame street /tv how do you know what
|
| marys |
kids know
?
|
| janfields |
Small children know
about families...
|
| janfields |
they know families
aren't all a like but a family is supposed to love each
other.
|
| janfields |
They know about
babysitters, preschool, pets, vehicles (they love
vehicles)
|
| janfields |
dinosaurs.
|
| janfields |
But they don't know
about nuclear weapons, war, why adults fight
|
| janfields |
they don't understand
that parents don't have all the money in the world -- no matter how
you explain it.
|
| janfields |
They don't understand
that adults don't get to do anything they want.
|
| janfields |
Those are concepts that
require they go outside themselves and very smal l children cannot
do that.
|
| janfields |
They aren't
developmentally able.
|
| janfields |
Publishers like books
about families...
|
| janfields |
and families in exotic
places sell well.
|
| janfields |
They like books about
first experiences...
|
| janfields |
first hair
cut
|
| janfields |
first car
ride
|
| janfields |
first train
ride
|
| janfields |
First
pet
|
| janfields |
Life has lots of
adventures for little kids.
|
| charweb |
Where can I get the
guidelines for PBs?
|
| janfields |
Publishers used to all
have writer's guidelines
|
| janfields |
And they were detailed
and really helpful.
|
| janfields |
They don't always have
them today.
|
| janfields |
Because publishers get
so many submissions without encouraging them that they don't want to
do too much.
|
| janfields |
But market guides will
give you the basic informaiton.
|
| janfields |
And checking out the
publisher's most recent book releases
|
| janfields |
on their websites and
on Amazon will usually tell you the rest
|
| janfields |
of what you need to
know.
|
| janfields |
Like...what kinds of pb
they do.
|
| janfields |
Charlesbridge, for
example, goes with very "literary" picture books.
|
| janfields |
A good bit of
multi-cultural.
|
| janfields |
More ...sedate
overall.
|
| janfields |
You wouldn't see _No
David_ from Charlesbridge.
|
| janfields |
While bigger publishers
often go with much bolder, and sillier books.
|
| marys |
what does more sedate
mean ...?
|
| janfields |
Quieter.
|
| janfields |
Often with a strong
theme...and maybe a multi-cultural aspect.
|
| lilyphenix |
Is the word inspiration
not suitable for a PB? (I don't
|
| lilyphenix |
think so but my critique
group think yes)
|
| janfields |
I don't see why
not.
|
| janfields |
It would depend on how
it's used.
|
| janfields |
The problem with an
abstract concept like inspiration
|
| janfields |
is that it CAN be tough
for a child to fully understand.
|
| janfields |
My daughter is in
Taekwondo and her group has kids of 4 - 6 in it.
|
| janfields |
The instructor has been
trying to explain "respect"
|
| janfields |
The kids totally don't
understand it.
|
| janfields |
It's too abstract for
the preschoolers.
|
| janfields |
My daughter (on the 6
year old side) sort of gets it.
|
| janfields |
But the little ones
don't...really, they just don't.
|
| janfields |
So...inspiration can be
a little like that...it isn't the word so much as
|
| janfields |
the
concept.
|
| cheryls |
Could a pet be the MC in
a book for young children?
|
| janfields |
Yes...though it works
better for slightly older, school aged kids.
|
| janfields |
But you could NOT
anthopomorphize the pet for preschoolers.
|
| janfields |
Little kids don't get
the fantasy of that.
|
| janfields |
Unless you made the pet
sooooooooo anthropomophic that he wasn't like a pet at
all
|
| janfields |
And wore suits and
stuff like that...the kids would see the silly in
that
|
| janfields |
and like
it.
|
| janfields |
But if you mean making
say...the hamster into the title character...
|
| janfields |
and being in his head a
lot.
|
| janfields |
It works GREAT in
middle grade
|
| janfields |
and young middle
grade
|
| janfields |
(in fact some books
like that have sold very well)
|
| janfields |
not so good in
preschool.
|
| hmbody |
wouldn't an editor think
i was nut's if i wrote"it got dead"
|
| hmbody |
it got dead is something
my grandson said the other day
|
| janfields |
Yeah, kids use
constructions like that a lot.
|
| janfields |
You COULD use it in a
middle grade, if the main character's younger sibling said
it.
|
| janfields |
It wouldn't fly usually
in younger books...editors are finding out
|
| janfields |
that parent's HATE bad
grammar in books for children developing language
skills.
|
| janfields |
You wouldn't BELIEVE
the flack Junie B Jones gets...and she's basically for school aged
kids.
|
| janfields |
So using a construction
like that in a book for the age group that really says it...it
probably wouldn't sell.
|
| marys |
do celebrities just sell
on their name and
|
| marys |
avoid all the rules we
need to know ??
|
| janfields |
Yes, basically they
do.
|
| janfields |
That's why you should
NEVER study a celebrity book
|
| janfields |
as an example of a
published book.
|
| janfields |
They are often very
poorly targeted for the age group.
|
| janfields |
And they wouldn't have
sold to the publisher without the celeb's name.
|
| janfields |
So they aren't
indicative of children's writing or what sells.
|
| janfields |
They are selling name
recognition ... not writing skill.
|
| coloradokate |
It seemed like a great
many of the PBs in our school library were written for kids older
than preschool, in terms of concepts and vocabulary; what would you
say was the upper age-limit for PBs?
|
| janfields |
When the picture book
market was sliding a bit
|
| janfields |
there was a real cramp
in the school-aged child pb
|
| janfields |
because sales to
schools weren't doing well -- school budgets we're not so
good.
|
| janfields |
And classrooms were
buying readers, not picture books.
|
| janfields |
Picture
books...especially hard cover
|
| janfields |
depend HEAVILY on the
library market
|
| janfields |
And the library market
was turning down older kid pb in favor of cheaper
|
| janfields |
readers and short
chapter books.
|
| janfields |
I understand we're
seeing a feeling of optimism about the picture
book.
|
| janfields |
So we may see school
aged picture book sales again...but if you look at the publishing
LISTS
|
| janfields |
almost all the school
aged picture books comign out right now
|
| janfields |
Are either by
established authors (who sell on name)
|
| janfields |
or by established
author/illustrator's ...again...selling on name.
|
| janfields |
We're seeing very few
first picture books for kids in school.
|
| janfields |
So..strictly from a
"first book sale" viewpoint..I would still highly recommend going
short text
|
| janfields |
young
audience.
|
| janfields |
They are still selling
better.
|
| lilyphenix |
Do you decide your target
audience depending on the
|
| lilyphenix |
content of your story?
(Violence, degree of drama etc...)
|
| janfields |
The really does play a
part in deciding on the
|
| janfields |
difference between
middle grade
|
| janfields |
and young
adult.
|
| janfields |
Often novels with
fairly young protagonists
|
| janfields |
are being sold as Young
Adult if there book includes violence
|
| janfields |
and certainly if it
includes sex.
|
| janfields |
Problem novels still
tend to be young adult.
|
| janfields |
But voice plays a part
too.
|
| janfields |
The teen voice is often
more cynical
|
| janfields |
The humor is usually
meaner
|
| janfields |
Where middle grade
humor is more based on surprise.
|
| janfields |
And is rarely really
mean spirited.
|
| janfields |
(in books,
anyway).
|
| lily
li |
how to sell a picture
book? where do we can find good agent?
|
| janfields |
If you're starting with
a picture book...
|
| janfields |
you're likely to be
better off not looking for an agent.
|
| janfields |
I don't know too many
agents who are LOOKING for picture books.
|
| janfields |
Actually...that's not
true.
|
| janfields |
The truth is that I
don't know ANY agents that are looking for picture
books.
|
| janfields |
I do know agents who
rep picture book authors.
|
| janfields |
Often that happens via
meeting the agent at conferences and workshops.
|
| janfields |
Or because the agent
signs a writer for her old kid's work and also sells her picture
books.
|
| janfields |
But because agents
don't really want to deal with picture books...
|
| janfields |
most publishers still
accept picture book submissions unsolicited.
|
| janfields |
And the few who don't
...nearly all of them take queries.
|
| janfields |
And even the one or two
who don't want queries (like Harper Collins) are sitll sending
editors
|
| janfields |
to conferences to meet
to authors and get new talent.
|
| janfields |
So...the way to go as a
beginning picture book author is just to submit.
|
| janfields |
NOW...having said
that.
|
| janfields |
I got my agent on the
basis of a single picture book manuscript.
|
| janfields |
I sent it, knowing full
well he wasn't looking for picture book writers.
|
| janfields |
And he loved it,
called, offered to represent it.
|
| janfields |
And
boom.
|
| janfields |
of course...my book
collided with the very roughest part of the pb market turn
down.
|
| janfields |
I honestly had editors
tell me agent that they would have bought the book 6 months
earlier.
|
| janfields |
ouch ouch
ouch
|
| janfields |
But, that just goes to
say, nothing is written in stone in this business.
|
| janfields |
I have seen folks do
things that I would SWEAR couldn't have a good
result.
|
| janfields |
And they sell a
book.
|
| janfields |
It comes down to the
book. If it's something someone falls in love with...they'll forgive
you nearly anything.
|
| lilyphenix |
So I guess your voise
change depending on your age group?
|
| janfields |
Some...but not
exactly.
|
| janfields |
I am writing a Young
Adult novel right now.
|
| janfields |
I've written magazine
stuff for every age.
|
| janfields |
And in every piece...my
writing SOUNDS like mine.
|
| janfields |
Because it reflects my
sense of humor.
|
| janfields |
When you think about
it...if I'm entertaining a group of kids...I'm still
me.
|
| janfields |
I have to tell
different stories than I would tell teens or
adults.
|
| janfields |
But I'm still doing it
"my way" -- so my voice is still recognizable.
|
| janfields |
Even though I'm making
different choices.
|
| janfields |
But I have put on some
very different styles.
|
| janfields |
I wrote a pb called "A
Lion in the Garden" and the style is very wry
|
| janfields |
Very much an extended
inside joke.
|
| janfields |
(that's the picture
book that got me an agent...but never sold)
|
| janfields |
I wrote another pb
manuscript called "Miss FIona's Ferret"
|
| janfields |
the was a finalist for
a writing award.
|
| janfields |
And one editor called
it one of the most gorgeous real-alouds she'd
|
| janfields |
seen in a
while.
|
| janfields |
She didn't buy it...but
she talked nice.
|
| janfields |
Now ... no one would
have called the lanuage in LION gorgeous.
|
| janfields |
Different syles...but
it still ultimately sounded like me.
|
| cheryls |
When a publisher says no
query, does that mean that they
|
| cheryls |
only accept material
submitted through an agent?
|
| janfields |
Yup...that's what
they're telling you.
|
| janfields |
Though you can often
meet the editors of those publishers at conferences
|
| janfields |
and they will accept
your stuff after a conference.
|
| janfields |
One of the problems
with those "closed" houses
|
| janfields |
is that they are
usually VERY VERY bottom line driven
|
| janfields |
So all of their money
tends to go to back the celebrity books...
|
| janfields |
the books by "known"
authors
|
| janfields |
The books by "known"
author/illustrators
|
| janfields |
So even when they do
take on a brand new never published writer...
|
| janfields |
they often don't back
the book well enough to get decent sales.
|
| janfields |
You'll get a couple
thousand, of course, just by virtue of being
published
|
| janfields |
by a house with good
sales reps and distribution
|
| janfields |
but you don't see the
sales you would have seen if you'd
|
| janfields |
gone with a publisher
that puts more attention/money into all the books
|
| lilyphenix |
Do you query a YA only
after the whole manuscript is done?
|
| janfields |
I would ...
yes.
|
| janfields |
Though I know Lauren
Barnholdt began shopping her first book...
|
| janfields |
and got an agent for
it
|
| janfields |
before she had come
anywhere NEAR finishing it.
|
| janfields |
That's because she was
doing chick lit
|
| janfields |
and sometimes concept
is virtually enough there.
|
| janfields |
But still overall, I
think you do better to finish the book, and polish the book before
sending it.
|
| lilyphenix |
And for a serie you need
to have at least 2 or 3 stories
|
| lilyphenix |
ready?
|
| janfields |
Nope, you really only
need one done.
|
| janfields |
And a couple "planned'
-- the plot fairly well thought through.
|
| janfields |
So you could explain
it.
|
| janfields |
I warn you of
something...
|
| janfields |
virtually ALL series
writers do a lot of plot planning.
|
| janfields |
so if you're an
"organic" writer and you don't like to plan.
|
| janfields |
Series writing is going
to be a very hard place
|
| janfields |
And the deadlines will
be brutal.
|
| hmbody |
some of the guidelines I
down loaded said no query, to send full manuscript, is that for
'known or agents'
|
| janfields |
No...if they ask for a
manuscript.
|
| janfields |
They want a
manuscript.
|
| janfields |
Be really sure it's a
reputable publisher, of course.
|
| janfields |
But there are quite a
few children's publishers that take full
manuscripts.
|
| janfields |
And many picture book
publishers ONLY take full manuscripts.
|
| janfields |
Because really...it's
easier than trying to figure out if the person can write from a
query.
|
| janfields |
They won't READ the
whole manuscript unless they like it, though.
|
| janfields |
As soon as they hit a
"ho hum" spot...they stop and reject it.
|
| janfields |
So for folks taking the
full manuscript..you really gotta be good.
|
| lilyphenix |
Age and poetry? Does that
matter when you write poetry
|
| lilyphenix |
for kids? And for a
magazine?
|
| janfields |
Poetry for very young
children is always very concrete
|
| janfields |
It won't be about
"concepts"
|
| janfields |
Except..maybe...love...but even that's a
push.
|
| janfields |
It's usually about
common images and actions.
|
| janfields |
And it
rhymes.
|
| janfields |
Always
|
| janfields |
And the meter has to be
PERFECT.
|
| janfields |
Poetry for middle
readers can be about concepts like respect or
self-esteem
|
| janfields |
seen through images, of
course
|
| janfields |
But they can be
thematically deeper
|
| janfields |
Though they still
rhyme.
|
| janfields |
But you can play a bit
more with form.
|
| janfields |
Lots of publishers also
buy seasonal stuff for that age.
|
| janfields |
Teen poetry can be hard
to sell
|
| janfields |
It needs to be fairly
edgy...and it doesn't have to rhyme
|
| janfields |
It's usually about hard
issues.
|
| janfields |
Hard
decisions.
|
| janfields |
The imagery can be kind
of brutal sometimes.
|
| lizziegirl |
When you self publish a
book does that count when you....
|
| lizziegirl |
query a
publisher?
|
| janfields |
Do you mean that you
self-published in the past and now you want to query a publisher
with a new book?
|
| janfields |
Or are you trying to
sell the self-published book to a publisher?
|
| janfields |
It almost never works
to try to sell a self-published book to a commerical
publisher.
|
| janfields |
About theonely time a
commerical publisher picks up a self-published
book..
|
| janfields |
is when they "discover"
one.
|
| janfields |
Meaning a friend of a
friend shoves it under the editor's nose.
|
| janfields |
Ahhh...as a publishing
credit...
|
| janfields |
self-publishing counts
only if you sold lots and lots and lots of books.
|
| janfields |
Otherwise it gets about
the same nod as if you said you posted some stories on your
website.
|
| janfields |
A couple
thousand.
|
| janfields |
For a picture
book...probably about 5000
|
| janfields |
for a poetry
book...maybe 1000
|
| janfields |
Everyone knows poetry
is a tough seller...and poetry
|
| janfields |
has a long history of
"chapbook" sales which are shoestring publishing.
|
| janfields |
So you don't have to
sell nearly as many to impress a publisher.
|
| janfields |
For a novel...probably
2000 would get some interest...3000 would make an
editor
|
| janfields |
really interested since
it means you're a very successful self-promoter
|
| janfields |
I did an ebook and sold
a few hundred copies...it was a lark.
|
| janfields |
I never mention it as a
credit.
|
| lilyphenix |
I am sorry, I don't
understand what magazine mean
|
| lilyphenix |
by "craft", how do you
submit that?
|
| janfields |
I suspect you're
talking about how-to articles where the child produces
something...
|
| janfields |
like a gift to give
someone
|
| janfields |
or a scrap
book
|
| janfields |
something like
that.
|
| janfields |
Right...they mean
how-to articles where the children learns to make
something...
|
| janfields |
probably using glue,
paper...maybe craft foam, yarn, stuff like that.
|
| janfields |
You write it as
step-by-step directions.
|
| janfields |
And you have to make
the craft yourself because they always want to seeAT LEAST photos
with the submission.
|
| janfields |
I used to just
automatically send the made-up item when I sent crafts to
Highlights.
|
| janfields |
Okay...the hour's
up.
|
| janfields |
Wow...there were a lot
of questions.
|
| janfields |
Thanks.
|
| janfields |
Oh...oh...can I slip in
one little piece of my own good news?
|
| janfields |
My little
website...http://www.kidmagwriters.com was
chosen...
|
| janfields |
as one of the Writer's
Digest 101 Best Websites for Writers
|
| janfields |
for
2006.
|
| janfields |
I was
thrilled.
|
| janfields |
Thanks.
|