| janfields |
Join us this afternoon
in the AUDITORIUM- for an exciting Open Forum with web editor, Jan
Fields. Today's Topic is "Dialogue." Bring your QUESTIONS to this
open forum—in five minutes.
|
| janfields |
Today's Open Forum Chat
will begin promptly at 3pm Atlantic/CANADA, 2pm Eastern, 1pm
Central, noon Mountain, and 11am Pacific. While you wait for the
Open Forum to start, feel free to use your ASK A QUESTION button
RIGHT BETWEEN THE YELLOW “MAP” AND THE RED QUESTION MARK IN ICHAT to
post some questions for discussion in chat -- open forum begins two
minutes from now.
|
| janfields |
Hi! Welcome to Open
Forum. Today's Topic is "Dialogue." I'm your moderator, Jan Fields.
I've been writing for money for over 20 years and dialogue is one of
my great success. So let's talk about the purpose of dialogue, how
to sound like a kid, and what dialogue isn't intended to
do.
|
| janfields |
Hi
guys.
|
| janfields |
One of the things I'm
going to try hard to do today is watch you guys WHILE doing the
chat.
|
| janfields |
That way if I ask a
question...you can answer...and I'l see it.
|
| janfields |
But if you want to ask
a question...you should still use the little ask a question
thingie.
|
| janfields |
Because I only
multi-task just SOOOO well.
|
| janfields |
Now, the main purpose
of dialogue is MUCH like the main purpose of narrative
detail....
|
| janfields |
it plants
clues....
|
| janfields |
in many ways, all
writers are mystery writers...
|
| janfields |
We give the reader
clues
|
| janfields |
and trust that the
reader will assemble them to form conclusions...
|
| janfields |
that we
intend.
|
| janfields |
So...dialogue gives us
clues to characterization...
|
| janfields |
such as
personality...
|
| janfields |
What else can you learn
about a character from his dialogue, besides his
personality?
|
| janfields |
Yes, miss
dell
|
| janfields |
Right...dialogue can
show you how educated a character is...or how
intelligent.
|
| janfields |
Anything
else?
|
| janfields |
Dialogue can reveal
nationality or regionality
|
| janfields |
General age can be
gotten from dialogue for sure...teens don't usually sound like
middle aged women.
|
| janfields |
Unless the women are
very cool...or a bit odd.
|
| janfields |
Mood come accross in
dialogue much better than if we TELL the reader about a character's
emotional state.
|
| janfields |
And dialogue can reveal
what's true...what's in a character's heart..or what his motives
are.
|
| janfields |
Sometimes what dialogue
SAYS and the way it SAYS it, will reveal when a character is
lying.
|
| janfields |
The key to good
dialogue is subtlty
|
| janfields |
And
ear.
|
| janfields |
And
LOGIC.
|
| janfields |
It helps if you take a
moment to ask yourself...can I imagine a human person I KNOW who is
similar to this character...
|
| janfields |
and in this
situation...
|
| janfields |
actually saying
this?
|
| janfields |
For example, in REAL
life when I'm sitting on a comfy couch swilling tea with
dell
|
| janfields |
I would be unlikely to
say, "So, dell, tell me, dell, just how is your husband Beau doing
and your kids Sally and Jean.
|
| janfields |
First...cause those
aren't the right names.
|
| janfields |
And second because why
would I tell dell what her husband is named or her
kids?
|
| janfields |
And yet...many writers
create dialogue where character tell each other things they already
know.
|
| janfields |
I call that "soap
opera" dialogue
|
| janfields |
Because soaps us it all
the time...dumping information FOR THE VIEWER that the character
already know
|
| janfields |
And would never
reiterate in an info dump.
|
| janfields |
The old, "Hi,
tolkienlvr, how have you been since your tooth was filled by Dr.
Moore who happens to be sleeping with his assistent or so you said."
dialogue.
|
| janfields |
Right,
acceber...internal dialogue especially doesn't tell the character
stuff he already knows.
|
| janfields |
I've seen internal
dialogue run like this...Jan thought to herself...I'll just keep
typing throughout this hour and then word will appear, type
type.
|
| janfields |
Yup...I think like that
ALL the time.
|
| janfields |
Okay...time to snag a
question.
|
| writersblock |
Do you always have to put
"Alex (or whatever the character's name is) said." at the end of
your dialogue (for the tag) or can you put other things like Alex
smiled (even though that's an emotion) or Alex replied . . . etc.
What's the scoop on dialogue tags?
|
| janfields |
Dialogue tags serve one
primary purpose...
|
| janfields |
they keep the reader
from becoming confused about who is speaking.
|
| janfields |
Beyond that...there is
minimal they can do for you.
|
| janfields |
So...keep dialogue tags
to a minimum and don't let them do battle with the word
themselves.
|
| janfields |
Which is the number one
thing readers need to pay attention to.
|
| janfields |
So...that's why editors
like "said" because it's unassuming...
|
| janfields |
but what they really
really like is avoiding tags except when they are really
needed.
|
| janfields |
So you might identify
dialogue with narrative action, for example.
|
| janfields |
Thus adding action and
even characterization along with the dialogue...
|
| janfields |
Fermin pulled on his
ear and grinned. "I can't say that I ever heard that
before."
|
| janfields |
conveys more than "I
can't say that I heard that before," Fermin said.
|
| janfields |
And does it less
wordily than "I can't say that I heard that before, Fermin said,
pulling on his ear and grinning.
|
| janfields |
Now, there is NOTHING
wrong with the use of an unusual tag now and again.
|
| janfields |
When it's exactly the
right tag.
|
| janfields |
"Did he say pig?" Uncle
Louie bellowed.
|
| janfields |
Tells us a lot more
than "Did he say 'pig?'" Uncle Louie said.
|
| janfields |
Or than Uncle Louis
asked.
|
| janfields |
So...when you feel the
need for just the right tag...don't be SCARED of the
alternatives...
|
| janfields |
just don't rush around
looking for them.
|
| janfields |
I once read a series of
nonfiction on presidents.
|
| janfields |
In each book, the word
SAID was never used.
|
| janfields |
There was plenty of
quoted speech.
|
| janfields |
But always the author
used "pontificated" or "directed" or "proclaimed" or
whatever.
|
| janfields |
I read the books aloud
to a class once and the kids ended up giggling as each new speech
tag came up.
|
| janfields |
I decided it was a
clever editorial comment to tell us that polititians never actually
SAY anything.
|
| janfields |
But it was VERY
attention getting...pulling attention away from the content of the
quotes.
|
| janfields |
So...keep in mind the
idea of competition...the more important the bit of dialogue, the
less you want your tag to compete with it.
|
| acceber |
What about formatting? If
A speaks, B responds with a reaction but no dialogue and C speaks
again. Is that three paragraphs?
|
| janfields |
Most of the time...most
publishers (magazine and book) prefer only one speaker per
paragraph.
|
| janfields |
Thus is A speaks, you
then break for a new paragraph before B responds...
|
| janfields |
But if B only responds
with an action
|
| janfields |
Not dialogue...and the
action is small
|
| janfields |
You need to decide how
much the reader ABSOLUTELY must notice the action.
|
| janfields |
If you break paragraph,
you will draw extra attention to the action.
|
| janfields |
If you leave it in the
original paragraph, you make the action more subtle and seem less
important.
|
| janfields |
Both are grammtically
correct.
|
| janfields |
You have to decide what
the relative importance of the action is.
|
| janfields |
So I might
say...
|
| janfields |
"Come on over here,"
Jan said. Acceber sauntered forward.
|
| janfields |
Then break and say.
"Forget it, I ain't comin," Doug said.
|
| eggamy |
How do I keep all
characters from sounding the same?
|
| janfields |
For me this comes down
to how much I know the characters.
|
| janfields |
I try to do a brief
chart of all the characters.
|
| janfields |
For example, I did a
spec piece with 6 girl characters...
|
| janfields |
Do I had each one
charted...one was shy, a bit overprotected, but
smart.
|
| janfields |
One was brash, clever
but not bookish.
|
| janfields |
One was from a big
family, the oldest, and prone to taking charge.
|
| janfields |
One the characters were
"real" for me...they sounded NOTHING alike
|
| janfields |
Because they had
totally different motivations, reactions, and
personalities.
|
| janfields |
Usually if your
characters sound too much alike...monkey with their
personalities
|
| janfields |
and see what comes of
it.
|
| janfields |
If you still cannot get
them to resolve into separate people...ask yourself if you need both
characters.
|
| janfields |
Sometimes a mom and dad
will just sound like in a story.
|
| janfields |
So maybe they both
don't need to be in on the discussion...and you can give all the
dialogue that
|
| janfields |
to the parent you keep
in the story.
|
| gracem |
taught never to use but
see them often in children's works?
|
| janfields |
Gracem means the -ly
adverbs that modify "said"
|
| janfields |
Like "Come here," she
said softly.
|
| janfields |
Or "Get out," he said
hotly.
|
| janfields |
There is nothing wrong
with an adverb now and then.
|
| janfields |
BUT...they can sound
sing-songish if used too often.
|
| janfields |
And they make the tag
wordy.
|
| janfields |
So you have to ask (1)
do I need to modify the said?
|
| janfields |
And (2) should I just
consider a different tag?
|
| janfields |
Like "Come here," she
murmered.
|
| janfields |
Or "Get out," he
roared.
|
| janfields |
With almost anything in
writing...there is no IRON CLAD rule.
|
| janfields |
You weigh the pluses
and minuses.
|
| janfields |
The plus can be a
slightly more defined mode of speech.
|
| janfields |
The minus is wordier
and maybe a little sing-songy.
|
| janfields |
Consider that
carefully...and make your choice...then it is a choice, not a
habit.
|
| janfields |
It's the -ly habit
folks who give editor's the twitch.
|
| caq |
Would that be one of the
things that would make oar break a sale, or woudl an editor suggest
the paragraph break for action or non-break because it wasn't
necessary. Knowing you need it to be perfect to
submitl
|
| janfields |
Perfect means you fix
your format and your grammar and make your prose
sing.
|
| janfields |
But there will always
be style issues that are publisher specific
|
| janfields |
Or things that are
flexible.
|
| janfields |
There is always the
chance you'll hit an editor who is rabid about one single
issue...like passive voice.
|
| janfields |
Or breaking paragraphs
for emphasis
|
| janfields |
or hating -ly
words.
|
| janfields |
But overall...if you
choose what you do intentionally...and any prereader you have don't
point it out as something that bugged them...you should be
fine.
|
| janfields |
Truth be told...no
matter how perfect you are...a book editor will ALWAYS want
changes...
|
| janfields |
and some magazine
editors will too...
|
| janfields |
so that means you
weren't as perfect as the editor wanted before
publication
|
| janfields |
But you were plenty
perfect enough to make it a great read.
|
| writersblock |
About internal dialogue,
I was told that you shouldn't use italics to set it off in your MS,
Do you just treat it like regular dialogue (new paragraph) but
without the quotation marks? Or how do you format internal dialogue
in your MS?
|
| janfields |
Internal dialogue is
another open style issue.
|
| janfields |
At one time...it was
"in" to set it in italics.
|
| janfields |
Another time and
place...you always used quotation marks.
|
| janfields |
Ultimately it comes
down to smooth transitions and clarity.
|
| janfields |
I use a LOT of internal
dialogue.
|
| janfields |
I don't use
italics.
|
| janfields |
I don't use
quotes.
|
| janfields |
I don't separate it by
new paragraphs.
|
| janfields |
I often introduce it
with a paraphrase then into the internal voice...
|
| janfields |
like
this...
|
| janfields |
Jan wondered if Cosmos
had any chocolate. If he does, he probably wouldn't share. If it's a
he. Now a she....then, she would share. We girls are like
that.
|
| janfields |
The "Jan wondered
if..." is a paraphrase
|
| janfields |
Then I slip into the
internal voice directly.
|
| janfields |
It's always good to get
samples.
|
| janfields |
Though some magazines
will buy it in more than one style.
|
| janfields |
I've always done my
internal dialogue the same way.
|
| janfields |
But I've sold it that
way to Pockets...which sometimes puts a tag on EVERY scrap of
internal voice.
|
| janfields |
And they didn't put a
tag on mine...and left it in the style I wrote it.
|
| janfields |
I assume they did so
because it was clear.
|
| janfields |
I've also seen Cricket
sometimes do italics and sometimes not.
|
| janfields |
I think it boils down
to clarity for a lot of magazines.
|
| janfields |
How clearly are you
entering into and slipping out of your internal
voice.
|
| janfields |
Acceber...I
(personally) hate "Jan thought to herself" so I would never use
it.
|
| janfields |
I mean...who else is
she going to think to?
|
| janfields |
Unless I set her up as
a telepath.
|
| janfields |
But I probably use "Jan
wondered" a good bit...and "Jan stewed"..Jan sulked...Jan can be
pretty sulky
|
| janfields |
With a lot of internal
dialogue italics can BE VERY ANNOYING, yes, caq.
|
| janfields |
I once read a book with
real telepaths...so half of it was in italics.
|
| janfields |
You could get SUCH a
headache.
|
| janfields |
But apparently TOR was
cool with it since they published it in teeny tiny paperback
print.
|
| eggamy |
are adverbs still
xonsidered weedy words?
|
| janfields |
Technically any word
you don't NEED is a weedy word.
|
| janfields |
I put every word in my
stories under the hot lights and grill em...do they need to be
there.
|
| janfields |
why are they
there.
|
| janfields |
What good do they
serve
|
| janfields |
Is the sentence
stronger without them
|
| janfields |
You see...I have this
weakness for adverbs...so lots of them go in.
|
| janfields |
But eventually MOST of
them come out.
|
| janfields |
Any word used
purposefully...is not a weedy word.
|
| writersblock |
Is formatting for
dialogue (internal too) the same for magazines and books, or are
they formatted differently?
|
| janfields |
Some of the small
religious magazines don't break paragraph for new
speakers...
|
| janfields |
unless the new speaker
is bringing in a new topic or something.
|
| janfields |
I've seen that in
Sunday School take homes...
|
| janfields |
And some places like
Bread for God's CHildren.
|
| janfields |
I find it incredibly
hard to read and hard to keep the speaker apart.
|
| janfields |
I
|
| janfields |
I have read some
foreign published books.
|
| janfields |
That did not break for
new speakers if the new speaker said something very
short.
|
| janfields |
Such
as
|
| janfields |
"Do you have
chocolate,
|
| janfields |
"Do you have
chocolate," Jan demanded. "No," Caq said meekly.
|
| janfields |
But MOST of the
time...dialogue format is consistent
|
| janfields |
And you will not be
penalized in the submission process for doing it with
breaks.
|
| janfields |
That was poetic
license, caq....big honking poetic license.
|
| caq |
Would it be safe to say
that if your dialogue format it hard for us to read and follow, that
it will be hard for children to read and follow?
|
| janfields |
Right..and one way to
find out is to have someone read it to you.
|
| janfields |
If the person seems to
trip over the words or gets a pinched look...you're being
confusing.
|
| janfields |
Now...this brings me to
one thing about speech tags.
|
| janfields |
Easy reader books...the
beginning level ones...they tag EVERY piece of
speech.
|
| janfields |
They are INCREDIBLY
annoying when read aloud.
|
| janfields |
But it's because the
normal reader reads it so slowly, they can get confused about who is
speaking.
|
| janfields |
Now...one thing I
wanted to talk about was how to sound like a kid.
|
| janfields |
Because... a lot of
writers don't
|
| janfields |
I reviewed a published
book recently where the writer did a great job with his nonhuman
characters
|
| janfields |
but he totally didn't
know how to make a kid sound like a kid
|
| janfields |
And not a middle-aged
guy
|
| janfields |
And I later found out
an editor MADE him make the kid a big charcter...thus expanding a
weakness
|
| janfields |
One thing kids are as
speakers is very casual.
|
| janfields |
They use
contractions.
|
| janfields |
If you're kids talk
like this" I will go, Mother. But I will not go until after my
show."
|
| janfields |
You have a
problem.
|
| janfields |
First
|
| janfields |
And this seems kind of
obvious...but apparently isn't
|
| janfields |
Kids today...they don't
call their parents MOTHER or FATHER.
|
| janfields |
Not unless they are
really really torqued off with them.
|
| janfields |
That means that even in
narration...don't use MOTHER for the mother.
|
| janfields |
You can say: Jan's
mother was really annoyed with her.
|
| janfields |
But don't say: Mother
was annoyed.
|
| janfields |
Ah...good point,
caq...a kid might use "mother" or "father" as an address in a joking
way.
|
| janfields |
But it won't be common
address in modern children.
|
| janfields |
Kids today can use an
amazing variety of slang
|
| janfields |
You do want to sound
young...but beware of trendy or tv slang.
|
| janfields |
It isn't universal --
so it may sound right to kids in LA but wrong to kids in
NC.
|
| janfields |
And it will be quickly
dated in a novel.
|
| janfields |
And if it can be
sexually suggestive...publishers won't publish it.
|
| janfields |
Which reminds me of
another point.
|
| janfields |
Some things we say very
casually offend some parents
|
| janfields |
Or are considered "bad
words"
|
| janfields |
A kid calling another
kid STUPID...some parents totally don't allow that.
|
| janfields |
Interjections like
"Geez" --which are religious derrivatives can be
offensive.
|
| janfields |
So although they might
be very REAL...you'll have trouble with them in
magazines.
|
| janfields |
Since editors really
prefer not to run stuff that will make parents cancel
subscriptions.
|
| janfields |
Though you WILL see
that stuff in books.
|
| janfields |
Right, acceber, book
publishers are way more flexible about language that
way.
|
| tolkienlvr |
Jan, can you give a few
examples of slang terms that have stood the test of time that are
still being used regularly in kids lit now.
|
| janfields |
Cool is still
cool
|
| janfields |
Caq, right...magazine
editors sooooo don't want to offend parents enough to cancel
subscriptions/
|
| janfields |
Book publishers offend
parents pretty regularly...so you can go for it :-)
|
| janfields |
Um...back to
slang.
|
| janfields |
"neat" can work for
very small children since they sometimes pick up parent
slang.
|
| janfields |
And some of us oldies
are not above saying neat
|
| janfields |
Lame...is still
universally the thing to say if something it bad.
|
| janfields |
I know teens today
sometimes use "gay" to mean "lame" and you can get that past some
teen book folks but not magazines.
|
| janfields |
But magazines are okay
with lame.
|
| janfields |
Teens can call the
underdog a "loser" and "scrub" is popular right now and will fly
with most editors.
|
| janfields |
"dweeb" is very
out...mmm..twit is out...dork is out...pretty much if we used it in
high school...it might be out.
|
| janfields |
depending out just how
far you are from high school.
|
| janfields |
wimp is
okay.
|
| janfields |
Awesome works for
younger characters...not so good with teens.
|
| janfields |
Though you can build a
very RETRO teen and have him intentionally choose old old
stuff.
|
| janfields |
Scrub means loser...you
know...when someone is scrubbed from a
mission/project?
|
| janfields |
Right, caq, if you're
creating a "period" piece...it's good to use the right
slang.
|
| janfields |
Personally, my main
characters tend to be very quirky and I sometimes just make up new
slang for them.
|
| caq |
Jan, at what age do you
think the child would switch from Mommy and Daddy to Mom and Dad? I
am not too sure on that one. I guess I never paid attention when my
kids switched.
|
| janfields |
Even though I'm over
time...I want to hit this one.
|
| janfields |
My 6 year old still
says MOMMY sometimes.
|
| janfields |
But really, school aged
children DON'T say Mommy in publication.
|
| janfields |
School aged girls in
the South can say Daddy a little longer...but Mommy gets outsted at
about 5.
|
| janfields |
And even younger if
your character is in preschool...or, right, fermin...with older
sibs.
|
| janfields |
Mommy and Daddy are
strictly preschool though.
|
| janfields |
In
print.
|
| janfields |
Okay. I want to thank
y'all for coming and hanging out with me.
|
| janfields |
Don't forget THURSDAY
NIGHT
|
| janfields |
Victoria Strauss will
be here
|
| janfields |
Writer
Beware
|
| janfields |
to talk about avoid
scams and making good choices.
|
| janfields |
She knows
EVERYTHING.
|
| janfields |
And thank you guys...ya
know I love you.
|
| janfields |
Next Tuesday we're
going to talk about YOUR WRITING
VOICE.
|